Northern invasion 5 thoughts part 2

So, just in case you didn't read the last post, this follows on from my initial thoughts about my 1000 point army. However this post will be about how this post over at the Warhammer 40k Blog changed my way of thinking quite dramatically. Now, the post in question was a bout building a 12 command point list (or 14 with the inclusion of Creed) for 1000 points, which was just perfect timing for the tournament, even though sadly I wont be able to attend.

The list in question is based around the max min theory or maxing out on minimum sized/priced units, and then building from there. Now for his final list, he includes a number of units that I do not own, namely Yarrick, Bullgryns and Rough Riders (although I would love to own some rough riders). As such I have modified the list slightly to take in to account the fact that I don't own these units and also to take into account my own play style and needs. so what did I come up with?

HQ

Creed

2x Company Commander w/ Boltgun

Tempestor Prime w/ Power maul and Command rod

Troops

Inf Squad 

2x Inf Squad w/ Autocannons

2x Inf Squad w/ Grenade Launcher

MT Squad w 2x Meltaguns

Elites

2x Commissar w/ Bolt Pistol

MT Command Squad w/ Plasma Guns

Fast Attack

2x Scout Sentinels w/ Autocannon and Chainsaw

Scout Sentinal w/ Multilaser

Heavy Support

2x HWS w/ 3x Lasconnons

Wyvern

All for 1000 points and most importantly 14 command points, 3 for battle forged, 9 for a Brigade Detachment and 2 more for Creeds Tactical Genius.

So, that's the list, but is it well rounded? Well, I think so. There are a total of 9 orders, although two are dedicated to MT units, which is fine as there are only 2 MT units to give orders to. The other 7 will be spread across the other 7 units, so in reality, an order each. Perfect. There is a good spread of firepower as well, with plenty of bodies in the troop section to add weight of fire, plus bodies to take objectives. There is also lots of heavy anti-infantry with a number of autocannons, some mounted on mobile platforms, the Sentinels. The Wyvern also adds to the anti-infantry firewpower. There is also some plasma goodness in there for tougher targets and being MT troops, there is the possibility of some character sniping, with dropping in behind. There is also a good amount of anti-armour as well, with the autocannons doubling up for lighter vehicles, the grenade launchers can also double up for lighter vehicles and infantry but the main anti-armour is the two HWS units, which can kick out 6 lascannon shots, with the potential to do 36 wounds a turn. ok, there far more likely to do about 12, but they have the potential and they are actually less fragile than they use to be, as T6 weapons wont insta-kill them any more. Sat in cover they will be fairly hard to shift without some dedicated shooting. The squad of Melta Scions is a good backup for the Lascannons and will be able to drop in on anything hiding out of sight of the Lascannons. 

So, I think it covers most areas, the only real weakness that I can see is that there is very little mobility in the list, but if the format remains the same, which I believe that it will, were looking at objectives and kill points being the main victory conditions. This list does have a lot of kill points to give up if its done on a one point per unit basis as it was last year, but I have suggested switching over to the power points system that some other tournaments seem to use, as in you gain the number of power points that each unit costs when you kill it off. As most of the units are cheap units in terms of power points, if they go with that system, it should help reduce the effect somewhat. As for objectives, I don't think that there will be many other armies out there that will be able to field as many bodies as this at 1000 points. Nids and Tau maybe?

Now, as it stands, 14 Command Points is not huge, as there are only there Stratagems that can be used, the main rule book three, but even using a re-roll a turn means that I would have 4 points left for the other ones. Now, with the commissars I hopefully wont need the Insane Bravery one much, however Counter Offensive could be useful for getting a few strikes in first before being wiped out, as guard aren't really combat monsters. When the codex comes along, I think 14 command points will be huge, but until then its just useful. I might have to make a few tweaks to this list before I would be completely happy with it but by the time you read this I should hopefully have played a game against someone who is attending the tournament. It was supposed to be our no holds barred testing session and even though I'm not going, I'm still going for the jugular! I'll write it up in the next few days and get it posted along with my post game thoughts on the list.

Northern Invasion 5 thoughts

Well, I had planned this as a list building and critiquing post, however, I am not going to be able to attend the tournament now due to my wife's work commitments. Its a shame that I will have to miss this year, as it would have been nice to try and defend my crown from last year. Oh well, ill have to plan for next year instead.

 So, this is going to form one part of two rapidfire posts about my thought processes for the tournament. First part is the lists I was initially thinking off.

During the last week or so, when it was unclear if I would be going or not, I had looked at a number of lists and the difficulty of getting a good list at 1000 points presented itself. Now, I would usually go straight to my "go to" list of the Hjaltland LI, but recent games have shown just how tough vehicles have become and it has made the Hrossey Yeomanry list look pretty strong these days, maybe stronger than the Hjaltland, but at such a low points level its hard to get all the elements in to form a well rounded list.

I started, as usual with an infantry based list, which ended up looking like this;

HQ:

Creed

Company commander w/bolter

Tempestor prime w/power maul and command rod

Troops:

20x conscripts

2x squads with autocannon and grenade launcher

MT squad w/2x melta guns

Elites:

Commissar

Command squad w/4x plasma

MT command squad w/4x plasma

Ratlings

Fast attack:

None

Heavy support:

Wyvern

Heavy Weapons squad w/autocannon

Flyers:

Valkyrie w/rocket pods

Transport:

Chimera w/heavy bolters

Lots of boots on the ground and a few vehicles and transports. The plan for this was to run the two squads and HWS at the back with creed, along side the Wyvern, to act as the base line, the ratlines would also be somewhere around. The various MT squads would stay off the board and drop in as and when they were needed or at the end to grab objectives. The Valkyrie and chiwould, one of which would have the command squad inside, would move around and take on what threats they could or needed to. Mean while the conscripts and commissar would be the main offensive unit, pushing up the board and hopefully occupying the bulk of the enemy firepower. 

Its not a bad list as far as I can see, it would gain at least 5 command points (battle forged plus creed), possibly more depending upon what formation I chose to shoehorn it in to. There is also a nice mix of weapons, with the MT packing both melta and plasma for a choice of targets. However, they are all fairly short range weapons. Yes, there are 5 autocannon and 3 heavy bolters spread throung the list, but if I come up against a vehicle heavy list it would struggle. I think that there are enough troops to deal with the objectives, and with 3 MT units being able to deep strike on turn 4 to try and take objectives, I think the list would have worked.

However, I though that i would see what an armored list would look like. Now, I took a list a couple of weeks ago, also at 1000 points, and it worked out quite well, so with a few minor tweaks, I settled on this list;

HQ

Pask w/battle cannon, lascannon and heavy bolters

Troops:

MT squad

Elites:

Ratlings

Platoon commander w/bolter

Platoon commander w/bolter

Vets w/3x plasma guns

Vets w/3x melta guns

Fast attack:

None

Heavy support:

Wyvern

Flyer:

Valkyrie

Transport

Chimera w/heavy bolters

Chimera w/heavy bolters

I dropped the commissars as they weren't needed and I dropped the hell hound as it want very effective last game. I also dropped the second leman Russ and switched up pasks tank as I felt that, while a punished was good, it lacked punch. The basics behind this list would be the Wyvern sitting at the back with the rRatlings, while the rest of the force moved up. The vets would all be in the chimeras with a platoon commander each. The Valkyrie would circle overhead. This list would be hard to crack, a t6 11 wound model, 2  t7 10 wound models and 1 t8 12 wound model plus a t7 14 wound flyer. That's an average of t7 and 57 wounds, all with a 3+ save. The down side is that there are no troops and with the event going for objective secured on troops, this could be a problem. In terms of weapons, there's is still a lot of choice, a good amount of anti infantry with the Wyvern and Valkyrie, the chimeras also add some weight. Pask is the only real anti tank though, yes the melta vets can do a lot of damage, but at 12", 6" is even better. The battle cannon can do it at 72" though as can the lascannon. The MT squad is in for last minute objective grabbing, that's all, their running at bare bones just to come in turn 4 and try to hold the objective.

Now, one issue with the first list is that you are likely to always go last, due to there being a minimum of 9 drops and a maximum of 16, but realistically it will be 13 or 14. The second list your likely likely to go first, with a max of 11 drops but a min of 6, although I would be using 7. This means that the MT units in the first list would only have one round of shooting to enjoure rather than two, as with the second list, making survival a lot more likely.

Both lists have their strengths, the first being numbers, a range of firepower, both anti-tank and anti-armour, but lacks mobility. The second list has mobility and anti-armour and anti- infantry but lacks both numbers and volume of fire. 

However as I was pondering these lists, something popped up on my reading list on blogger, a post from the Warhammer 40k blog, about 1000 point lists and gave me a whole new view on things. More in the next post.

Other 8th ed marine lists

The last of my army list discussions is finally here. This post will focus on the two remaining army lists, the Stone Dragons and the Emperors Disciples, as talked about in the last post. Again, ill start with the stone dragons.

Rune Priest - w/plasma pistol and runic sword
Wolf Lord - w/storm bolter and wolf claw
Wolf Priest - w/ plasma pistol
Grey Hunters - Wolf guard w/plasma pistol and chain sword, Pack leader w/power sword, grey hunter w/ plasma pistol, grey hunter w/plasma gun, 2x grey hunter w/boltgun
Grey Hunters - Wolf guard w/plasma pistol and chain sword, Pack leader w/powerfist, grey hunter w/ plasma pistol, grey hunter w/plasma gun, 2x grey hunter w/boltgun
Long Fangs - Ancient w/boltgun, bolt pistol and chainsword, 2x lascannons, 2x plasma cannons
Rhino - storm bolter
Rhino - storm bolter

827 points (47 power points)

As you can see, the dragons are a bit of a mixed bag. The keen eyed amongst you might notice a bit of a difference between what was written about these guys in the last post and the list here. This is because having gone back through the index to double check the entries and also using BattleScribe, I have discovered that you can no longer take wolf guard squads with bolter, pistol and combat weapon, as per the last errata. No this is a bit of a pain, but not the end of the world, it just means that I've had to have a rethink about the force. So, out come the wolf guard squad and in goes........ Well, that's a good question, what does go in? With nearly 200 points to spare, what is going to go in the place of the wolf guard squads? I have thought about lone wolves, but even then, two lone wolves aren't the best choice, although they certainly are the cool choice. So what do i do? I will probably either run these guys with  the Disciples or with some Dagr Ormr, so I guess its better to go with a more combat orientated unit, but I want more good all rounds and just not Grey hunters. I think that my main problem right now is that I wanted to stay away from space wolves specific units, as in fenrisian wolves, thunderwolf Calvary and wolfen, not to mention chapter specific characters as well. Hopefully a solution will present itself in due course or maybe when the codex does arrive, either way there is a bit of time to decide.

Next up are the Emperors Disciples. As I mention in the previous post, these are going to be a fairly elite army, with only the captain and Dev's sitting outside the elite choices. Now, as mentioned in the last post, there is a high likelihood of a lieutenant being included within the list, probably at the expense of the company champion.

Captian - w/Combi-plasma and power sword
Apothecary
Company Champion
Honour Guard - Powerfist, Power Axe
Honour Guard - Power Sword, Power Axe
Sternguard - Sgt w/Powerfist
Sternguard
Devastator Squad - 4x missile launchers
Razorback - w/heavy bolters
Rhino - w/stormbolter
Rhino - w/stormbolter
Rhino - w/stormbolter
Rhino - w/stormbolter

966 points (56 power points)

With the current set up, you can see that there are 3 proper squads and 2 small squads and 2 characters, all of which can sit quite comfortably in the transports. While the Dev's won't  spend a lot of time in there's, it does mean that there are greater options for moving around the field, with a decent amount of redundancy built in to the list. Ideally I would upgrade a couple of the rhinos to razorbacks and I probably could upgrade 2 as things stand, but until I get around to building the force, I want to give myself some room to manoeuvre. Again it would be nice to have these razorbacks armed up with twin lascannon for some extra anti-armour punch, but that will be expensive.

In terms of the rest of the force, the plan is to run one sternguard squad and one honour guard squad together in a rhino, and then run the Dev's in the third rhino. The honour guard are there to help if the sternguard get too close to the enemy and get caught up in combat. Ideally they won't get charged, but if they do, then they will try and fall back at the first opportunity and leave the honour guard to hold up the enemy, until the sternguard can shoot again. Lastly, The razorback will carry the captain, lieutenant and apothecary, to support one of the sternguard units, depending upon who requires the most assistance. So, while not the most balanced list, it should be fun to play and also fairly easy to paint up!

Other 8th ed Marine armies

So, I've run through most of my army lists but there are a few still outstanding, pal of which are space marine armies. Now, for quite awhile I have been thinking about slimming down my forces, afterall, 2 pure guard, 1 guard/tempestus and 5 marine armies is quite a few. In reality this equates to 5 2000 point armies and 2 1000 point armies and a 500 point army, which is probably a little excessive. I have often thought about selling off a few models and reducing down my collection but I've never got around to it. Anyway, that's really for a another post, right now lets look at the last few army lists.

We'll start with the Stone Dragons. These are the space wolves derived chapter and are quickly growing in size. Starting out as a 500 point force, there now up to 1000 points. The original force was made of awolf priest, a squad of Grey hunters and a small unit of 3 long fangs. Now with the rule changes and the changes to some of the squads, namely the long fangs, the force has grown to include a wolf lord and rune priest, a second Grey hunter squad and a wolf guard squad, in addition to extra long fangs and a couple of rhinos. Now, even with these extra units, the idea of the force remains, as a multipurpose force, tooled up for combat and ranged combat, with every one wielding bolter, pistol and swords (of various types). They are not going to be combat monsters, or even ranged killers, but a general force to support other, more specific forces.

The end list may change again, when the wolves codex drops, and they will probably not see masses of table time, as I don't envisage me buying the wolves codex, unless its quite a bit cheaper then the main marine codex, which I don't see happening. I do however, see this force growing over time, as I like the wolves and their character.

Next up are the Emperors Disciples. These were actually the first force that I decided on, as a companion to my guard infantry force, something to add some "weight" behind the guardsmen. They have however been relegated somewhat to one of the lesser forces over time and also have become one of the more specialized forces. When this force originated it was in the form of a demi-company, with all the requirements that entailed, then with the release of the ssternhammer detachment its various formations, the force changed in a more dedicated force, something it retains now.

The main part of the force is still made up of sternguard squads, but with the increase in the cost of transports, there are now just two squads with rhinos, supported by missile Dev's and two honor guard squads and company champion for close support. Add in the obligatory captain and apothecary and the force is complete. Now, with the inclusion of a lieutenant in the codex, there is a good chance that one will find its way in to the force, giving some extra re-rolls and meaning that atleast one ofthe sternguard squads will be re-rolling 1's to hit and wound. There are also some additional transports, in the shape of another rhino and a razorback. This means that the force is a highly mobile force, with everyone being able to get into a transportfor rapid mobility, which is the main point of this force.

The last force to talk about are the Brazen Hawks. Now here is the biggest change, as I will be dropping these guys from my build schedule or rather my paint schedule as most of them are already build. The reason is that I was never really happy with the force in the first place. I think that I have mentioned this in the past, I wanted a black templars force and I created a story around that, but I could never get the force to where I wanted it. In terms of fluff, I like the back story, but the actual force always seemed a bit of a compromise.

In reality I would have liked to have included neophytes in to the squads, to have the proper feel to the units. Ideally I would have had land raiders as well, probably two land raider crusaders with a big squads of crusaders each and a couple of characters for good measure, all in a 1000 point force. But the reality is that I don't own the models and I'm sticking to my no buying new models rule (except for the chimera I need for the Hrossey yeomanry). As such, the models from this force have been distributed to the other forces.